The Thin Line Between "Elusive" And Boring
(Ole!)
In case you missed it somehow on Saturday night, Joe Rogan wants you to know that Lyoto Machida is elusive. And because he doesn't trust your ability to pick up on this right away, he relies on repetition to get the point across. Conveniently, this viewpoint -- the one that deems Machida elusive and Tito Ortiz hopelessly confounded by that elusiveness -- is right in line with the plans of the UFC brass. Funny how that works, isn't it?
I'm not saying that Rogan doesn't truly feel this way about Machida. For all I know, he does. But the mere fact that the UFC was looking toward a future with one of the fighters in the Ortiz-Machida bout and probably not counting on any such future with the other really makes it difficult to take what we hear at face value.
If it had been Ortiz circling cautiously away for most of the fight, relying on a few sporadic fits of action to win a decision, would Rogan have praised him for being so elusive? Or would he have suggested, in some roundabout way, that Ortiz was avoiding the fight?
The point is, we don't know. We can't know. But what we do know, what we've learned over the years, is the UFC does not cast off talent lightly. They have a way of shoving it out the door, and that alone gives us reason to wonder if what we're hearing on a broadcast is a genuine perspective from Rogan or whether it's the company line. Like it or not, that's a problem.
To his credit, Rogan seems like an honest man who prizes his autonomy on some level. Mike Goldberg, on the other hand, seems like he'd say anything the UFC asked him to without even thinking about it long enough to understand what the words mean. But the fact that we have cause to ask these questions at all is troubling.
How you feel about Machida's fighting style seems to be a personality test of some sort. Does his strategy of avoiding the action until he can engage on his terms make him boring, or does it make him tactical? Has he figured out a style that takes a lot of the risk out of MMA, or has he merely figured out a way of not fighting and still winning?
You could make an argument for both perspectives, so it's not as if we can accuse Rogan of trying to put over an undeserving fighter with pro wrestling-style hyperbole. At the same time, this is something that's fairly unique to MMA right now. The NFL doesn't get to choose the broadcasters for its games, and while you may get a healthy dose of bias watching your local baseball team on TV, it's so overdone and understood that it doesn't have much impact.
Fighting is a different sport that way. The commentary, particularly in a fight that goes to a decision, can shape the way we view it. It's a lot like watching a "Rocky" movie with the sound off -- suddenly you become acutely aware of just how fake it is.
Imagine the effect that a glowing commentary can have on fans who are newer to the sport, who aren't sure whether what they're seeing is good or bad. A close decision can easily be made to seem more lopsided. A boring fighter might even seem a little more exciting. So much can be changed by having someone in your ear telling you what to make of it.
I'm not sure what the answer is for this problem. Part of Rogan's job is to express an informed opinion, so on some level we're either willing to trust that he's being forthright with it or we aren't. Maybe the solution is for the UFC to work on a more even-handed approach with their fighters, even the ones they want to get rid of. There's no need to make it personal. If they don't want someone on their roster, it's fine to let them go. They don't have to discredit them or make them look bad to justify the decision.
Hopefully the UFC learns this soon, and then we can go back to assuming that opinions expressed by Joe Rogan are his alone, even if we disagree.
(-Ben Fowlkes)
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Comments
BIG CHRIS Says:
The only reason I sat through this fight was because i wanted to see if they were gonna give Tito a post fight interveiew, I knew he was going to lose, I even picked that he would lose by decision on my UFC fanasy pick, I just honestly wanted to see what he was going to say....then when joe rogan went up to him I was like here we go....then for some reason Tito started this love fest and i was so pissed...it was the most boring fight I have ever seen, then he didn't even go out with a bang!! I thought he was gonna cause a scene or something.....oh well Tito I hope you sign with Elite and get stomped by Kimbo....
AJB Says:
I know I'm in the minority, and I completely understand why, but I LIKED the Ortiz-Machida fight. I wouldn't want ALL the fights I watch to be like that, but I also wouldn't want them all to be like Silva-Jardine (which was also awesome).
Ortiz was not aggressive enough, partially because his speed and boxing were not up to it. But regardless, his few shots were launched from way outside, and just like Machida struck in short bursts, Ortiz only tried to close the distance in short bursts, against a guy not known for KO power. It was a fun strategic match to me.
I'd like to see how Machida fares against Wandy. He'd either have to fight, or run like Kalib Starnes.
C-Bus Allstar Says:
The thing that really bites my goat about this whole shebacle (yes that's a word I made up on the spot partly from "She-bang" and "debacle"), is the fact that the judges are supposed to judge these fights based on effective striking (I'll give this to Machida), grappling (Toss-Up, personally I think Tito's attempt at a triangle was the most grappling we saw), Aggressiveness (Absolutely without a doubt, Tito), and Octagon control (Also Tito). If you look at these things, that bout should have been a 30-27 unanimous decision victory for Tito. Granted I think the guy's an ass and a douchebag, but he still should have won that fight. I don't see anywhere in the UFC rules where it says "If you run away for 15 minutes and leg kick every oh 40 or 50 seconds, we'll award you the win."
Machida's style is both cowardly, and effective. Mostly effective because of the cowardice part though. Based soley on what the UFC decides as it's Judging Basis, Tito Ortiz should have won. I just think it's pretty disgraceful for a guy like Joe Rogan (WHO JUST HAPPENS TO BE A MACHIDA-NUT-HUGGER), to put his personal opinion of a fighter (E.G. he thinks Machida is ELUSIVE, not COWARDLY due to his nut-hugger status), before the absolutely plain fact that Machida was avoiding Tito because Machida knew Tito has KO power in each hand.
homegrowncone Says:
Very well thought out and well presented. Bravo.
Personally I find Rogan to be, more than anything, a fan of the sport. I believe he was more amazed by WHO Machida was able to avoid being damaged by and not simply the fact he was avoiding strikes. Rogan couldn't very well have spouted off "Tito Ortiz was a dominant champion, and even HE can't take Machida down!" so I think indirectly you're correct, but I doubt it was intentional.
skidding Says:
I totally agree that whether you liked the fight or not is a personality test. Different people have different personalities, both opinions are correct...because it is just that ,opinions.
The reason I enjoyed the fight was wondering how a smaller and weaker guy could defeat someone stronger, bigger, who has killer wrestling abilities and should be able to bully his prey. My background is one of always being the smaller guy and resorting to non-physical attributes to edge out a win.
For the record I enjoy watching Don Frye, Tank Abbott and Kimbo slugfests for entertainment. But, I like watching Royce, Sak, and Machida for inspiration.
perkedel Says:
What's the point of this article again? Good lord ...
ksgbobo Says:
To me, this was one of the most frustrating fights to watch, mostly because I enjoy Tito and enjoy his fights. Watching him not being able to take Machida down, or close in on him and dirty box him was just frustrating. You could tell Tito was frustrated.
Machida is that sort of fighter, a tactical fighter who wishes to choose his shots wisely, I guess its from his background in Karate. He is just not as exciting to watch, and I think Rogan was just trying to make the fight seem better by calling him elusive. A commentator cant exactly call a fight boring, what good would that bring.
Kissenger Says:
Machida is an awesome fighter. Tito is now a BUM. How could you say Tito 'controlled' the octagon? He got owned in every exchange, couldn't take machida down, and his only chance for victory was the triangle (which he gave up for a sloppy armbar).
Machida is the most exciting figther in the UFC today. He displays skill, power and good tactics everytime he fights. The only fault he could legitmately be said to have is his lack of a killer instinct - maybe he should have finished Tito off (and some of his other opponents).
The boring fighters are the Ortizs', the Sherks', and the O'Briens - the wrestlers who are content to sit on their opponents for the whole match, whilst peppering them with lame hammerfists.
Your moms favorite MMA star Says:
put machida in there with wandy and lets watch him do the STARNES, otherwise he's gonna end up like jardine.
Kablamo Says:
Can we refer to Machida as Kalib Machida from here on? I don't understand how Starnes got 24's from judges and Machida got 30's. Their game plans looked pretty similar.
Ortiz nearly finished the fight with that triangle and didn't win the round on a single judges card. Shenanigans.
lolwut Says:
put him in with wanderlei and heill have no choice but to make it an exciting fight. O and anyone know a good website to watch these fights cause i was working that day?
C-Bus Allstar Says:
Kissenger: I was listening to everything you said up until the point where you said this: "Machida is the most exciting figther in the UFC today." At which point I laughed and moved on to more important matters, like cleaning the wax from my ears.
You're a classic nut-hugger. You latch onto a guy with some talent and some skill and DAMN what he does in the octagon, that guy is the baddest mofo you've ever laid eyes on in the octagon.
Go suck the sweat off someone else's jock dude, Machida's a meticulous planner, and an excellent game-plan executer, the problem is, his game-plan consists of running away and throwing the odd leg kick. Neither of which merit ANY victory.
Douchebaggery Says:
at the very least find a synonym for "elusive". I was trying to count how many times they kept using the same word but I was high so I forgot to keep it up :)
Anonymous Says:
C-Bus, I know you fancy Tito Ortiz and want to bum him, and then let him bum you, but you don't seem to understand that people have different viewpoints on things like this. I honestly find him very exciting to watch.
It's all losses from here on out for your boy Tito, and all V's for my man, big M.
TheFeniX Says:
@ Kissenger
I have to wonder if you've ever even seen Tito Ortiz in a fight. They don't call him a pioneer of ground and pound because he lays on people for a decision. He's one of the few fighters I've seen that can not only inflict serious damage in a closed full-guard, but can also finish a fight that way. His style is anything but lay and pray as his winning record is over half TKOs.
On the other hand, while Machida is an excellent fighter, over half his wins are via decisions. He knows the judges and he knows who he is fighting. He does just enough to win and not to lose.
As I've said before, you can respect him for that. But I understand full-well that some fans of MMA will despise a fighter for the same thing. Most fans want fighters who put all their skills on the line and look to finish a fight. Sure, that can make for some serious losses, but guys like Tito got where they were because they also offered exciting finishes.
Machida may go his entire MMA career without a loss, but with his fighting style, I doubt he'll ever reach the popularity of the big names. Fighters like Anderson Silva show that you can be (near) technically perfect and still put on an exciting performance. Shit, most of my friends aren't even serious MMA fans and after watching Silva's fights remember his name with no issues. You think they give two shits about Machida?
Thrud Says:
I loved the fight. Mainly, I think, because I watched it with the sound off so as not to have to put up with either Rogan, Goldy or with the crowds inevitable booing. Machida is definitely not boring, he's just on another level as regards movement.
unodakine808 Says:
I can see how people find the fight boring, but I don't know how people can say Tito was the aggressor in the fight when he did little to bring the fight to Machida. Let look at some of the fight stats. Tito threw 74 punches/kicks in the fight and only landed 39 of them... NONE of them in the first btw... He also attempted 5 takedowns and failed all of them. Machida attempted 91 strikes and landed 67 of them. Machida was the more active fighter.
Also how did he win in octagon control when he did nothing to cut off any of the ring to Machida. He used the ring to his advantage and Tito didn't know what to do after he decided that he couldn't take him to the mat.
Tito's gameplan looked similar to Sherk's in that he was trying to stand with a superior striker after the takedowns failed, but the difference between the two is that Sherk was fighting back. Machida left the ring basically unscathed and Tito had to get 15 stitches and was probly pissing blood.
Was this fight boring? Maybe to some, but you can't put it all on Machida. Surely Machida could and probably should have been more aggressive and pick Tito apart more decisively, but he still won convincingly. I think his next fight he will have heard all of this backlash and step his game up and try finish someone. But there were two fighters in the match and one kept to his game plan and one was left completely off his game.
Trippin Ninja Says:
Personally I enjoyed the fight. I think Machida is a very technical and effective fighter. If Tito wasn't such a one trick pony it wouldn't have been so boring IMO. But since GnP is about all that gorilla can do we didn't see much other than the triangle/arm bar he almost got off.
Tito totally got saved by the bell in round 1, his arm was trapped and he was getting pummeled. IMO Machida stays busy and outperforms his opponents enough to deserve his decision victories. Theres no way I could put him in the same boat as Kalib Starnes. You guys act like he went in there and dodged Tito the whole time when he threw and landed more strikes than Tito did and had the takedown in round 1.
Machida needs to take a page from the book of Anderson Silva. Because if you watch Andersons fights closely you will see his standup is very elusive with counters and staying at range much like Machida's except for the last minute or two where Silva will bring the heat. He will either finish them with this or secure the round or if he does get himself into trouble he just has to hang on a minute until the round is over. IMO this is the perfect game plan for an elusive type of fighter. If Machida did something similar and exploded on his opponents towards the end of the rounds he would win a lot of fans over I think.
Jeff Says:
I think Machida attacked JUST enough to hide the fact his game plan was to run away all night. It looked like there was no power in his strikes, like they were only thrown to look good for the judges. Machida did really well and I think he won 10/9, 10/9, 9/10, but he took NO CHANCES at all the entire fight. He showed all brains and no brawn.
Machida had an opportunity to become a beloved fighter, he blew it with a boring cowardly performance.
Vrax Says:
Strangely it was actually Mike Goldberg who was more complimentary towards Ortiz, remarking "Tito is still one of the strongest Light Heavyweights out there" and both Rogan and Goldie touted Tito's conditioning, and "expertise" in cutting weight.
As far as coloring this fight int he eyes of the fan, to me, their worst offense was saying that Tito has blocked the headkick. That'd be the same headkick that split his eye open. Which he didn't block.
Or maybe it was when they said he was close to the triangle. He simply wasn't. Now, before you bash my inability to watch fights, I ask that you check out a replay of that scene in slow-mo. What you'll see is that the moment Tito figure-fours his legs, Machida bends his right arm and draws his shoulder down to create space and prevent the triangle from choking him.
That is why Tito went to the Armbar. The armbar was close until Machida rolled, landing with his arm safely elbow-down, removing the fulcrum from the lock. And winding up countering the position in the same way that Rich Franklin did against Travis Lutter. When Franklin did it? He was hailed for his brilliance, Machida on the other hand is being called lucky.
I don't think we have much to worry about with regards to Rogan's honesty, if there was I doubt he'd be directly contradicting Goldberg when Goldie said that Sherk was "in the pocket". That said, it's always good to let em know we're watching.
Also, dear fans, learn some fucking JiuJitsu so you know when someone is in trouble or not. Or don't, whatever.
veikkaus Says:
I've got to say, I too love watching guys trying to punch each others head of the shoulders. But I still got to admit that Machida was a genius on saturday. Who would want to go toe to toe against Ortiz, who weren't invited into Dana's afterparty. I don't think Machida was afraid connecting with Tito, he was just smart. And that is the thing that differs mma into a sport from bar brawls.
And you got to admit that the feint kick into Tito's face was pure art.
Mr.Whitefoks Says:
The dawm thing was a dance recital, Machado had the hand but for the most part Tito MCed the fight(Mastered the Cage) if he losted it should of been by close
split decision.
jakey Says:
Thought the fight was great best of the night. I know the double switchkicks might not have done any damage but that was some Bruce Lee shit going on there and I was like "Wow" when I saw them! I think Lyoto's great - if anyones boring in their career it's guys like Ortiz and Sherk ; and it was a great night for the sport I think because they both got beat
Kissenger Says:
Well said, Trippin Ninja.
TheFeniX - you, sir, are clearly an idiot. No one says that Tito pioneered GnP - people say that about Coleman.
Tito has finished a lot of fights in his time, but that doesn't make him an exciting fighter. Here is a run down of a typical Tito victory: charge opponent, take down, hit with elbow, repeat same move for 3 rounds, put on stupid t-shirt.
He is the very definition of one-sided. Machida and others (Silva, GSP, Penn) can do it all, and that's what makes them exciting, because you never know what is coming next.
mmafan Says:
Watching Machida fight is like watching paint dry. If this is the way MMA is heading then it will join boxing as a no one watches.
TheFeniX Says:
@ Kissenger
"TheFeniX - you, sir, are clearly an idiot. No one says that Tito pioneered GnP - people say that about Coleman."
I said he pioneered it when?
What I said: "They don’t call him a pioneer of ground and pound because he lays on people for a decision."
Read. Comprehend. Post.
You don't have to "invent" something to be a pioneer with it.
If you don't like ground and pound fighters or don't find them "exciting," whatever. I personally don't give a shit. But down-playing the skills of a fighter just because you don't like how they fight is retarded.
And don't even put Machida in the same circle as someone like GSP. GSP takes fighters into their own world and demolishes them. He beats guys like Koshcheck at their own game (wrestling and take-downs). He gets himself into a position where (on paper) he should be at a disadvantage, and then proceeds to dominate. The rest of the fighters on your list do it all and casual and hard-core fans actual care to remember their names. Why is that?
How about because Silva can and will knock your ass flat with pin-point punches while back-pedaling. How about because Penn might on paper be better suited to submit a guy, but he's also more than willing to knock their teeth out. Just because you can coast to a decision victory doesn't mean you should. Many top level fighters live by that, Lyoto doesn't. That's why he's not as popular as the others on your list. That was the whole point of my post which flew over your head.
Lyoto constantly keeps the fight in his world, working where he has the advantage. And I've yet to see any fighter give him a real go at taking him out of his comfort zone. That shows a lot of talent on his part, but also a lot of weakness in the fighters he faces.
When he finally gets that fight in the UFC (or where ever) when his back is against the wall (not just figuratively) and he's pressured relentlessly and he comes out on top, then he'll deserve to be listed in the same league as guys like GSP and Silva.
sol Says:
if you check out some of Machida's other fights you can see he doesn't like to start off the action and chooses to react, when he does react he does it with style, see round 1 upper body takedown of Tito (that was some crazy power) and round 3 with the hit to the stomach.
Im not saying it was the most fun fight to watch, Machida relied on Ortiz's mistakes, but Ortiz made few of those. Stick Machida with forrest, rampage,wanderlei,shogun,tiago,chuck and things will be different (personally i think he can finish most of those guys) but it wont be boring.
Patrick Says:
Ha.
This is coming from a website that is actively involved in a promotional circle jerk with Kimbo Slice. Way to stick it to the man, Mr. Integrity!
I geniunely enjoy and appreciate Machida's skills, so naturally I think it's hogshit that you're passive aggressively calling out Rogan as some kind of corporate talkbox because he understands the talent that Machida possesses.
Dota Says:
Machida doesn't seem like he ever wants to finish a fight he just wants to win a decsion and go home. To me that is boring. I would rather watch Ricco Rodriguez eat an entire cow than watch Machida "fight."
The UFC needs something other than ten point must. Why not have the Pride rules. The winner tried to finish the fight or got the closest to finishing it. That should be enough to provoke someone to at least try to finish.
John Says:
I watched the fights with 2 friends. One of them hated the fight and thought it was completely boring. One of them was indifferent, just happy to see Tito lose. And I loved the fight. I'm a big time Machida fan and I respect his technique. It might not be as bloody as other fighters, but that doesn't make him boring. I agree that technique and strategy are what seperate MMA from a back alley brawl. I'm glad to see some of it taking place in the Octogon.
Also, just as a side note, my friend who hated the fight was also the one who knew the least about MMA. He just wanted to see blood and people smashing each other in the face.
Anonymous Says:
Lyoto Machida = Kalib Starnes
tully Says:
i think joe is definitely a good announcer. most of the time he is right on and has insightful things to say about the fight. but there have been times were i have been watching and it almost seems as if he is on one fighters side and he isnt really calling correctly he is just explaining why what one fighter is doing is good and doing the opposite for the other fighter. so maybe there is someone in his ear a little bit, but you cant blame him for taking orders hes got one of the coolest jobs ever.
Sam Says:
Machida isn't a fighter the whole 3 rounds he did nothing but cheap little shin kicks and managed 1 takedown on tito. When they did end up on the ground he nearly got submitted.
Machida is a point collector not a fighter.
James Says:
So true, he is a point collector.
James Says:
And no Machida does not do it all. Stand up he couldn't handle Sokoudjou. On the ground he nearly got submitted by Tito of all people.
What he is good at is running away. He runs the whole fight until the other guy gets bored and then comes in and does his cheap shin kicks.
Phantom151 Says:
I am a former hardcore Tito fan and this fight was a snore fest... his last few have been for me, I like the old school bird flippin tell ya all off and ground and pound everyone to ownage Tito, then to gay it all up on his exit instead of a big pound sand UFC/Dana White just spoiled it all for me. What Happened to the former 5 time Champ???
krakavelli Says:
OK - Tito is not the Tito of the past - he's bang'n Jenna J and has all the money he could want - the motivation is gone and there's nothing to prove. There was an obvious lack of will to pound Machida like he is so capable of doing. That being said, it's sad that a fighter like Machida w/ all this hype around him didn't do more to pull a real (W) - instead he danced his way to a decision (maybe he's better suited for dancing w/ the stars??)- look folks I want to like this guy but if this is his style I'll go back to watching boxing (zzzzzzzzzz) .... and for the records this guy should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as GS*.....or Anders..... let me stop there - NOT EVEN MENTIONED.
Zombie Rock Says:
Interesting debate and I can appreciate both sides, kind of. The way I see it, a fighter can play the points game and strategically win, or he can go in there and actually show people something exciting. Machida is clearly there to win by any means necessary and I can respect that. I'm just wondering why he didn't just snipe Tito from a six story building in the parking lot on the way to the fight and not have to risk getting hit at all. Winning is cool and all but excitement is what puts asses in the seats. A Machida vs. Machida match would put a motherfucker in a coma from boredom.
Daniel Says:
Not the most exciting fight to watch. Hard to judge whether Machida has the ability to go toe to toe with anyone of consequence. Respect his ability to "win" even if he is not trying to finish his oponents.
ThePeniX Says:
I love Machida's salty nuts and how they roll all over my tongue....
Spotpuff Says:
Totally agree with C-Bus regarding the judges' evaluations. Tito controlled the Octagon and was far more aggressive. It was aggravating to see a guy backing up the whole fight and picking and choosing when to engage. He should have lost based on timidity. Tito even put his hands down and said "Come on, throw a shot" at one point and Machida stayed put.
Boring.
Khalib Machida ftl.
trey_trey Says:
tito could have cut him off if he really wanted to engage him. it is boxing 101! he moves to his right... you move to your left! your in his face! tito did'nt want to engage him (you saw what happened each time they did). tito wanted it to APPEAR that he was chasing him. it was the perfect gameplan for machida! tito knew that if he could not get him on the ground and lay on him for three rounds that he would lose! think about it... p.s. c-bus...your an idiot!
trey_trey Says:
spot puff, your an idiot too! tito put his hands down twice and both times he got nailed! i have watch the fight 4 times and i KNOW what happened. get your facts in order fool!