Don’t Mess With GSP or the Jackson Camp When It Comes to Argumentation and Rhetoric, Either
('Don't even come in here with your faulty premises and negative proof fallacies, dude. Just don't.')
In a response to B.J. Penn’s request for the Nevada State Athletic Commission to investigate Georges St. Pierre’s use of Vaseline in their main event bout at UFC 94, the Jackson camp has fired back with an exhaustive argument refuting any accusation of wrongdoing.
As reported by Sherdog and the L.A. Times (which has a PDF of the full response), the Jackson camp provided seventeen pages of documents explaining what happened, why it wasn’t an intentional attempt to cheat, and why it had no bearing on Penn getting his ass handed to him.
A statement signed by Greg Jackson and Phil Nurse details the breathing technique used on St. Pierre between rounds and insists that video evidence shows only a “scant amount of Vaseline” ever found its way to GSP’s body. It also lays out four recommendations for improving the NSAC’s policies to avoid the greasing question in the future, including wiping down fighters before every round and using a “touch test” to see if they are unnaturally greasy. And of course they conclude by referring to Penn’s griping as “a desperate attempt to protect [Penn’s] reputation and commercial value after being totally dominated by a superior athlete.”
There are also individual letters to Keith Kizer from Nurse, Jackson, Steven Friend (aka “The Witchdoctor”) and a loooong one from jiu-jitsu coach John Danaher, which omits nothing in disassembling Penn’s “thesis” piece by piece.
Danaher explains the possibility for “Vaseline migration” from the face to the body during the course of an MMA match, and contends that since GSP relied on taking Penn down and controlling him the use of lubricants would do as much to hurt his game plan as it would Penn's. He also insists that since most fighters train in t-shirts, and without Vaseline on their faces during grappling sessions, it’s not uncommon for a fighter to think his opponent felt more slippery during “match conditions.”
And in case you hadn’t heard, in addition to being a jiu-jitsu bad-ass Danaher also has a Master’s in philosophy from Columbia, so dude knows how to construct an argument.
We now await the response to the response from B.J. Penn’s camp, which will presumably involve a video with a CGI reenactment of the alleged greasing and a treatise from Noam Chomsky about the nature of dishonesty and fairness in competition.
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Comments
Dave W Says:
I'm so sick of lubrigate.
Twinkletoes Says:
I'd like to grease GSP's turdgate up and hold an official inquest in it with my peen. He is scrumptious!
Anonymous Says:
LMAO OH SNAP is right dosent Penn realize there further he drags this out it just makes him look worst and worst? And the OH SNAP Regularities are just gonna be worst and worst??
Anonymous Says:
Game Over
Just Saying Says:
Good points. However, a Masters in Philosophy just means that he porbably has more questions than answers. Oh Snap!
armfarmer Says:
lol at the ali g link... love that character.
BJ Penn Says:
Sorry guys, I didn't mean to be such a sore loser and an excuse monger. Remember before the fight I'd often say "I have nothing to say--Let's fight. Let's do this."
Then after I lose (For the second time) all you hear me doing is whining like a little bitch. I should STFU. Thanks for the ego-check GSP, but it didn't work! I'm still an air head!
Mantooth Says:
Good for the Jackson camp to refute any allegations that Penn is bringing forth. Personally, I think that BJ has blown this "Vaseline" indecent way out of proportion. At first blush, it should have been ignored as making an excuse for the loss on Penn's part, but the more he harps on this issue, the more Georges' camp has to come and respond.
I don't know who is wrong or right in the situation, the bottom line is that the fight is over with and as long as the NSAC nor UFC sees nothing worthy of punishment, Penn's camp need to drop it already.
Cliffs Notes Says:
Want to buy Cliffs Notes for the PDF!!
ample Says:
Penn is such a little bitch, fuck him and his fans. I hope Kenflo elbowes a new butthole out of fatty mcchub chub Penn, fucking cry baby rich boy.
nerd alert Says:
lets just let them settle this in a octagon filled with vaseline.....wait....so gay
Thoughts Says:
I understand where this came from as the guys at the Jackson camp are "one for all, all for one" but I think it would just be better to let this go...its BS and even BJ knows it.
that guy Says:
Am I misremembering but wasn't the issue, as raised by the Penn camp to the NSAC, that it was a rules violation? I don't recall there being any official claim that it was a game changer.
the flaming lips Says:
she uses vaaaaaaaselinne
Anonymous Says:
If you read the rules there is the word "excessive".
"The excessive use of grease or any other foreign substance may not be used on the face or body of an unarmed combatant. The referees or the Commission’s representative in charge shall cause any excessive grease or foreign substance to be removed."
What GSP's team response is trying to say is the amount of vaseline that might have been left on Phil Nurse's hands was not excessive, intentional, etc. So, no rules violated...at least not intentionally.
CWR Says:
"...and a treatise from Noam Chomsky about the nature of dishonesty and fairness in competition."
funniest thing I have read in a while.
Imbecile Says:
I didn't even know John Danaher was coaching GSP. I guess the issues with between GSP, Matt Serra, and Renzo's camp have been resolved. That is awesome for GSP, since Danaher is one of the absolute best BJJ coaches out there. I have watched him dismantle some of the best black belts around at Renzo's gym. Word is he even gives Roger Gracie a run for his money in training. Danaher is really a BJJ visionary, and given how quickly GSP is able to pick things up, I wouldn't be surprised if he could beat BJ Penn in a straight jiu-jitsu match before too long. Maybe even now.
MoTropolisprymedigital@hotmail.com Says:
Its only a matter of time before Vaseline offers an endorsement deal to GSP. "Vaseline...The ONLY lubricant that migrates!"
Irish Guy Says:
Not only does the Jackson camp produce great fighters who kick your ass, but they come up with statements and letters to let you know in fact you did get your ass kicked.
Shifty Says:
Basically what I've taken from this is that BJ Penn has way too big of an ego too accept a loss to a better opponent, The NSAC needs to brush up on their policies, and nobody should mess with the Jackson 7 (my vote for the new name of Greg Jackson's camp).
I am a fan of GSP myself, but I believe that this situation does merit an investigation so that in the future this shit doesn't go on again. As Greg Jackson stated, there should be a better policy for testing for greasing. I also believe that there should be some sort of benchmark to decide on what amount of slipperiness is safe and natural, and what isn't.
As for this investigation, it should be the NSAC doing it, not BJ coming out with video "propaganda" of what took place. These actions are not going to help BJ's case in any way. This is not proof of anything except that BJ can't handle the loss and that he isn't able to approach this situation professionally, which is exactly what the Jackson 7 and GSP are doing perfectly, making BJ look that much worse.
I now see that not only are the Jackson 7 a ridiculous fighting force, but they all seem to be very well composed and professional inside and outside of the ring which makes them that much more powerful, inside and outside of the ring.
Get this investigation over with, come to some conclusion please, and have a policy set in stone so that next time something of this nature goes on there aren't so many speed bumps along the way.
*Still awaiting the debut album from the Jackson 7.
GSP is not impressed Says:
I am not impressed with your arguments BJ Penn.
omg vaseline migration
Jay Smith Says:
He he..............his name is BJ...........get it? BJ...........like blow job. Get it???
SMITH313 Says:
WHO GIVES A SHIT?! I DON'T! THE FIGHT SUCKED ANYWAYS SO IF WE STOP READING AND/OR WRITING ABOUT IT, IT WILL GO AWAY.! LETS TALK ABOUT HOW BAD WAR MACHINE IS GONNA GET FUCKED UP THIS WEEKEND IN CANADA!!
Criminally Negligent Says:
Chomsky is a bitch.
schnetzler Says:
Is the "touch test" jackson talks about, the same one as the "good touch, bad touch" test the counselor asks all the catholic kids about?
Darkside Says:
This whole thing reminds me of when the Patriots cheated in their game against the Jets to open the season two years ago. Did they need to cheat? No, but even if it wouldn't have made a reasonable difference in the outcome of the competition, they still shouldn't be doing it.
Anonymous Says:
Never thought I'd ever say this, but I'm sick and tired of both GSP, BJ, Greg Jackson and this whole "Vaseline" affair. I hope GSP and Penn never fight each other again. And I'm glad we don't have to really care about either two for a few months until their title bouts.
Imbecile Says:
Criminally Negligent makes an excellent point - Chomsky is a bitch! Stupid commie bastard should get the hell out of the country that he hates so much, but no other place would offer him the freedom to write his BS. And is "Grammarian" really a career you can be proud of? Seriously? Chomsky sucks BJ's cock.
duckers22214 Says:
His arguments fail, for the following reasons,
1. "Vaseline migration"
That isn't what happened. It wasn't some random unintentional flick of vaseline falling from the face on to the body, it was a conscious rubbing, and you can clearly see that more is being rubbed than the center of GSP's back.
2. "Greasing up St. Pierre would help BJ".
No. Terrible argument. The vaseline was applied to Pierre's back, not his arms, or chest, so it wouldn't help BJ in the Takedown game. It would help Pierre pass his guard, don't get it twisted.
3. "Most grapplers train in t-shirts. So thats why GSP felts greased"
This isn't true. Most grappler's train either gi or no gi. The majority of MMA fighters train no gi. Furthermore, it was Matt Hughes, Jason Miller and BJ Penn these are all high level grapplers, they know the difference between a man who has a shirt off and a man who is slippery.
I'm suprised by the author's belief that these are good arguments, their not. Not even passable. In fact, the weakness and invalidity of the aforementioned arguments lead me to believe that GSP greased intentionally, and knowingly, strip GSP's title, Strip his license, Strip his dignity and move on.
Russ Says:
Wow, i read that whole letter. So not only did GSP and the Jackson camp make BJ their bitch in the ring, but also made BJ their bitch on paper. In your face Hemingway, here comes Greg Jackson.
Nemos Says:
Who cares anymore, soon Kenflo will be the last nail on this scumbags carrier and we will never have to see his whining melon head in the octagon.
Anonymous Says:
duckers22214
1. Never said in fact that's what happened, it says migration does happen.
2. Actually, Phil Nurse rubbed/touched/tapped GSP's shoulders and chest first right after rubbing Vaseline on GSP's face (watch the PPV again). Phil rubbed GSP's back last, so it wasn't just GSP's back, like you said.
3. I won't make the broad statement as whether "most MMA fighters" training grappling with t-shirts, gi's or no gi's. I'm a big Matt Hughes fan and all the videos I see of him training on the mat grappling is with a t-shrit on. So I guess Matt Hughes is not "most MMA fighters" you know. But I agree that he would be able to tell the difference between sweat and grease.
mexican avalanch Says:
duckers, your third point makes no sense at all. what does gi/nogi have to do with anything? when they train no gi, they wear rash guards. you should look that up, they're remarkably similar to t-shirts. it's pretty rare that these guys do much training shirtless, if you'd ever actually been into an mma gym you would know that. don't try to refute an argument until you've actually got one yourself.
BJ's Balls Says:
Does anyone know where I can find BJ? I'm no longer with him because i've been hangin out with Kalib Starnes' balls. now they're both just pussies.
Surprise Says:
For the people who are saying the Jackson camp should have just "let it go"....it was an official inquiry....they had to respond. They probably didn't have to release it to the public, but I guess they were figuring since they had it typed up anyway...
Surprise Says:
In regards to #2 in ducker's list......I've watched the Jason Miller vs GSP fight a bunch of times. Right around the time where Miller claims to have "smelled Vaseline" was directly after he had just spent a good long while mashing his face into GSP's neck. He probably put whatever vaseline he was smelling there himself.
Also, I like how he said that he yelled to the ref "He's greased!"...I never seen nor heard him do this any of the time I watched the fight.....
NealTaflinger Says:
Nice Chomsky reference. What's next? Hitchens? McLuhan? Vidal?
tallsforeverybody Says:
Awesome....the only thing bitchier than BJ's camp IS Noam Chomsky.
One a known douche...the other quickly becoming one.
Crash Says:
Who would have guessed that Chomsky would have been referenced on a MMA site? True class and wit Ben! THIS is why I read this site every day.
Damn Says:
Come on guys. You are all stupid!
I was told in a text last month that GSP's mother is actually a French-Canadian Bigfoot. SO GSP is really half Bigfoot. You can't tell me that isn't an advantage.
Also, as you can see from GSP's appearance he was fed GH when he was a child for many years, hence why he hasn't been caught for steroids!
This greasegate is just the tip pf the iceberg. I'm sure BJ's next video will come out with someone taping GSP trimming his fur before his next fight to prove he is half Bigfoot.
SiDeBuRnZ Says:
@ MoTropo
How bout they give the sponsorship to BJ?
"Vaseline... A little goes a LONGGGGGGG way!!!"
or
"Vaseline, the mexican of lubes"
Beastcraw Says:
Hey Nemos, Where you from dude? I like your lingo.
BJ's Mom Says:
I wrote him a note on the morning of the fight, asking for no vaseline.
See he is allergic and got a nasty rash last time I used it for changing his diapers, please reconsider using a binky instead of mouth pieces, see BJ is used to this and its a unfair advantage to expect him to fight without it.
Mr. White, please make sure huggies is approved for his next fight as a sponcor we need all the money we can get to keep the little guy going, I gotta go Kleenex is on the other line is offering me a mass discount and we all know how many tons I have went through since this whole GSP cheating thing happened.
winklepicker Says:
WAR CHOMSKY
Anonymous Says:
He also teaches at Renzo Gracie Academy in New York and wrote "Mastering Jiu Jitsu" with Renzo Grazie
Anonymous Says:
Whose arguments? Danaher's?
HE'S A FUCKING GRACIE INSTRUCTOR FOOL - he knows more about jiu jitsu than Penn does even.
You're basically saying that a Gracie instructor who wrote a book called "MASTERING JIU JITSU" with Renzo, who has experienced countless hours of training, instruction and combat doesn't know wtf he's talking about?
I think you better go stick your head back in the sand.
Anonymous Says:
duckers22214's arguements + twisted = fail...move on.
Smeewa Says:
i think i just had a seizure looking at that "Oh Snap" diagram on the link page....