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21 Humans Who Make Being Human Look Really, Really Hard

Freddie Roach Thinks The UFC Is Just Using James Toney To Make a Point


(Little known fact about Roach? He absolutely loves Hitler jokes. Poor guy can’t help himself.)

Renowned boxing trainer Freddie Roach may not understand what this MMA jazz is all about, nor does he have much of an appreciation for the ground game (with the possible exception of Fedor Emelianenko’s armbars, I think they’re called), but he sees what’s going on with the UFC’s James Toney signing, and he doesn’t care for it. As he told Crave Online recently:

“I think they’re using James as a way to say MMA fighters are better than boxers. If he fights a quality ground guy, once he goes to the ground he’s gonna get killed. But If a guy chooses to stand up with James, James is gonna destroy him. That’s why they call him “Lights Out”. I really don’t think there’s one fighter in MMA that could stand with James.”

And thus, Roach exposes the great dark secret about the UFC’s latest maneuver. Signing Toney is just a ruse to make all boxers look inferior to MMA fighters. It is, at the very least, an interesting theory. It’s not without its problems, however.


For one, Toney relentlessly pursued the UFC – not the other way around. He showed up at press conferences, made several incoherent YouTube videos, and generally refused to go away. If Toney is getting used here, it’s something he practically begged for.

Second, if Toney gets murdered in his first UFC fight, all it will prove is that this particular boxer wasn’t ready for this particular MMA bout. We’re not kidding ourselves here. We know that Toney is a 41 year-old has-been in the boxing world. Beating him in a boxing match wouldn’t even prove that much anymore. Beating him outside his own sport is just something we expect of any decent MMA fighter who plays it smart.

If the guy chooses to stand and bang? Yeah, maybe then it’s lights out. Then again, maybe we find out how Toney likes being kicked upside his head.

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Joedirt- March 12, 2010 at 7:03 am
Haas... ya that one cracks me up too! Not only was mercer old, washed up, WAY past his prime... but he came in unprepared. He has publicly stated he needed the money... pretty sad considering back in the day he made a lot.
Haas- March 12, 2010 at 6:54 am
Yep, Just watch Remy Bonjasky vs Ray Mercer. Mercer gets kicked in the head in the first :15, than literally sais f$@K this and the fight is stopped.
Joedirt- March 12, 2010 at 5:28 am
Bringbackbabalu.... boxing is a fighting style. It is an olympic sport as is Taekwondo. Clearly you don't understand that boxing is as scientific as any martial art.
I truly believe that because of the money in boxing the top striking talent is there. Keep in mind most MMA fighters still have full time jobs... how can somebody be the best fighter in the world when they train after work? More money = more competition= better talent. Again like everyone else has said striking is just one element but EVERY MMA fighter has a backbone, wrestlers learn to punch etc.
And no... I don't think Toney will be very successful and I don't think it proves a thing.
Freddie Roach, regardless of what anyone thinks of his opinion is a successful and legendary coach.
Harold_Howards_Gnar_Face- March 11, 2010 at 8:12 pm
I want to point out that Kongo basically got knocked out by frank mir before he was submitted, to think that kongo could stand and bang with toney when a guy like frank mir can drop him, then imagine what toney would do. I do agree with the cro cop LHKOD statement, and pat berry would be genious, what with all the boxing promoters talking shit about leg kicks are for pussies, id like to see what excuse they pull out their ass after a couple of pat berry's leg kicks send toney to the canvas crying for a 3 piece. They need someone whos either gonna kick him to oblivion, or take him down and sub his has been ass.
The Old Red Mist- March 11, 2010 at 5:33 pm
People stop to watch a fight between two drunk slobs outside a fast food store on a friday or saturday night, so it won't matter to most whether Toney is going anywhere in terms of a title, most people are fascinated by watching other people fight and promoters exploit this. I know that's not what seasoned MMA fans want to see but these organisations seem to be interested in appealing to the lowest common denominator.

Toney going to the UFC has more to do with keeping him away from Strikeforce than anything else i think, after all the attention Walker generated for them.

The argument of whether or not a boxer would beat a mixed martial artist is a classic and the very basis of the UFC and other similar contests for a very long time past, whatever is said on either side will only serve to generate more hype.

Also, people should remember that all decent boxers are familiar with what in boxing is considered 'dirty', i.e use of the elbows and other parts of the hand and forearm and I'm sure Toney has had his share of streetfights, so he won't be a total novice to what goes on in a cage on the inside.

As a further point on the subject of boxing's effectiveness, less is sometimes more, when the brain is under pressure, more options can slow down the speed of reaction. It takes years of training and repetition to commit a technique to muscle memory and make it instantly available in the heat of the moment.

Finally, pre-Marquess of Queensbury rules, Boxing was very similar to MMA, with elbows, throws, takedowns, pins, stomps and holding and hitting all being allowed, which makes this whole debate fairly ironic.
Murdock- March 11, 2010 at 4:50 pm
ccman...uhh he is currently training manny
ccman- March 11, 2010 at 4:10 pm
The only time freddy roach loses more credibility than when he opens his mouth is when one of his 'trained' fighters has to actually fight someone.

He seriously has not trained a winner in forever.
Bringbackbabalu- March 11, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Does these people stand-up includes clinch fighting? And takedowns and all that? Do people really think boxing is a superior striking technique. In Wushu, Chinese boxing has many, many, many styles, and none of them are as simple or flawed as boxing. Boxing is not a fighting style or a martial art, its a sport. Putting a guy like Machida against a boxer in a fight is like putting a child against an armed, trained ninja. They would be cut down in seconds. Even hundreds of them wouldn't make a difference. Boxing is such a joke, Freddie Roach lives in an alternate universe.
Lysol- March 11, 2010 at 3:58 pm
^^For the dumbasses who don't get that post:

Anyone who tries to stand and bang with Toney will lose (i.e. tries to outbox the fucking boxer)

Anyone who manages to grapple with Toney will win.
Lysol- March 11, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Okay dipshits, Lysol is here to answer the BOXER VRS MMA FIGHTER debate:

A boxer will beat an MMA fighter in a boxing match every time.
An MMA fighter will beat a boxer in an MMA fight every time.

It doesn't matter what organization is promoting, how big the gloves are, or anything fucking else.

If you only utilize one dimension (i.e. boxing, wrestling; etc) then the guy who only trains in that dimesnsion has the advantage. If not, then the guy who excels at the most things has the advantage.

/debate
Joedirt- March 11, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Am I the only one who would find it funny to see Toney come in and submit somebody?
robthom- March 11, 2010 at 2:58 pm
"Big fan of the sweet science and mma, but these are two different beasts we're talking about...some want to prove nonsense.."

I dont follow boxing. But from what I know, +1.
El Guapo- March 11, 2010 at 2:56 pm
I can't wait till they announce who Mumbles'z opponent will be!! I'm honestly more intrigued by that than any fight already lined up. I know, sounds kinda silly. But it's true. (Jerry McGuire)"Fat Fuck, you had me at hello.."
ghostboner- March 11, 2010 at 2:39 pm
The debate is silly. The point is not to prove that boxing is better than mma, because MMA encompasses boxing. Boxing is one piece of MMA. The point is to FIGHT, and see whose skills are better. If you come to a fight in the UFC knowing that your opponent has skills in many disciplines and you have skills in only one then you are a fool. Fools sometimes get lucky, but that does not make you any less of a fool.

And I don't see what Roach is talking about. Not only did James Toney pursue the UFC, but he also claimed that he would smash everyone because he is an original death fighter with a killer side check kick. CP is right, his winning or losing will prove nothing. People have already won fights using boxing skills, and people have already lost fights trying to use only boxing.
ReX13- March 11, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Damn, fellas, some kid just got monkeyed, punked, and hulk smashed yeti stomped!

Someone get the enswell and the Avitene...
jizzninja- March 11, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Everyone is running circles here...pointless. Toney can win this fight against any mma fighter they throw at him. The most devastating aspect of mma is striking and yes he possesses only one aspect of that, being puches. More than likely tho he'll get kicked in the head drop like a fat bag of shit and we'll never hear from him again. Point being made there is no such thing as a mma vs boxing fight its all mma. Jizzninja busting nuts in the shadows
Yeti Stomp- March 11, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I skipped to the bottom without reading any posts after the first one, since I had to respond to that silliness right away:

Cloiselle - your statement makes sense if the person reading it knows nothing about MMA. If you think it was the boxing element that allows those fighters to dominate, let's go to Rich Franklin's nose and ribcage and ask them how good they felt after all those knees that Silva nailed him with while maintaining a beautiful Thai clinch.

To equate Couture with great boxing is, well, is to be an idiot. Research the guy a little bit, then get back to me.

Same for Frank Mir. The guy has eveolved his game by incorporating boxing into it as another aspect, but let's ask Brock Lesnar about Mir's boxing credentials on the night Mir submitted him. Or the time he broke Tim Syliva's arm with a submission. Again, do a little research, then you can join in the discussion.
Murdock- March 11, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Big fan of the sweet science and mma, but these are two different beasts we're talking about...some want to prove nonsense..
williamwallace- March 11, 2010 at 1:41 pm
yes it's true, boxers have great success standing up with mma fighters. Like how Marcus Davis used his chin to block knees from Dan Hardy and Ben Saunders... the truth is James Toney would last as long as the first leg kick was landed to his doughy midsection, or until he found out how hard a leg kick from a ufc fighter is. He's out of shape, has no mma experience, and and did mention that he is fat. If he is serious about fighting (unlike that no talent ass clown Ochocinco) He should start off with some low talent fighters like Herschel Walker did, you know plow down some hood rats as that black guy from the Forty Year Old Virgin would put it. Then if he is still alive, he should retire, and go back to being the incoherent George foreman wannabe that we know and hate.
robthom- March 11, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Boxing dudes are funny to me.

Like talking to the elderly.

There's nothing to be gained by attempting to reason, arguing or disturbing their world view.

They're just set in their ways.

(And we'll all be there one day)
Joedirt- March 11, 2010 at 1:21 pm
Derly.... Silva has 2 pro fights... 1 win (against an opponent with only that one fight) and 1 TKO loss (to a little better than 500 fighter)
Toney is past his prime and not properly prepared. It has NOTHING to do with boxing vs. MMA as a win or loss will prove nothing. As far as standing with Cro cop etc... my money would still be on a washed up Toney. On paper the fighter that can use more weapons is better, but in reality there is and has been more money in pure boxing than kick or thai, and as a result more talent over the years. Toney would do better at a lower weight like in his past... quicker on his feet increasing his chance to avoid a takedown, he fights too flat footed now and it will be exposed.
Dandannic- March 11, 2010 at 12:58 pm
@ wyatt: good call, I would love it if Toney came in with a boxing gove on one hand!!

I hope he fights Kimbo first, decent stand up fight, give him half a chance, then put him in there with Cro Cop let him eat some headkicks. eventually once he wakes up in a month or so, toss him to Randy and get him the fook out of MMA for good!
1granite- March 11, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Herschel walker isn't going anywhere, so are you saying he'll ever get into a position for a title shot??? Get fucking real, little late in life to change professions and go against guys who are half your age and been training since they were 5. Don't get me wrong he looked good in his fight but what is that saying..... NOTHING he fought who??????? exactly!
rampageisgod- March 11, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Herschel Walker isn't a joke.
El Guapo- March 11, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Baby J, Spider and Rampage have the best boxing skills in the UFC. Granted, they also have some of the best BJJ, overall striking and wrestling to round out their game, but more often than not just utilize their superior boxing to eff people up.

Mumbles'z boxing is on a whole 'nother level then theirs but his lack of well roundedness(not really a word)will be his undoing. I know I'm being Mr. Obvious here, but it is what it is. The onus really falls on his opponent, in my opinion. Play with fire and stand with Fat Fuck or play it safe and risk getting called a "(Mumbling)Maf'kn biiiatch, nawmsayin. He a got on top a me like a fag do, put me in a wrasslin move like on them WWWFE."
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