("Let’s have a good, clean fight, protect yourself at all times, and don’t leave it in the hands of the judges. Trust me on that one." Photo courtesy of MMAFighting.com.)
Yes, the lightweight title fight between BJ Penn and Frankie Edgar at UFC 112 was close through all five rounds, and we’re not going to launch into the corny argument that a challenger should have to definitively "beat the champ" to earn a decision victory. But when the judges’ scores came back for that fight, we were a little shocked by the 50-45 tally that Douglas Crosby turned in for Frankie, especially since Penn pretty clearly took the first round, probably deserved rounds two and three, and the only round that was obviously Edgar’s was the fifth.
Responding to the uproar from Penn fans, Crosby created a thread on the UG — humbly titled "The JUDGING GENIUS returns from the Middle East" — to explain his interpretation of the fight. Well, not so much explain as rant incoherently and endlessly, making the forum posters increasingly furious. Crosby’s manifesto, compiled by FightOpinion, is after the jump; please note that these words were produced by an actual professional MMA judge chosen by the UFC. Read on if you dare…
"So….Just returned from Abu Dhabi, and I haven’t been in my duplex more than 20 minutes, when the Doorman calls me on the intercom in a state of panic…Seems there are hundreds of moaning, howling ghouls in “RVCA” and “Prodigy/Hilo Boy” T-shirts surrounding the building like extras from “Zombieland”…And they’re chanting “50/45!” over and over, and trying to push their way into the lobby…..Which gives me a little time to talk to you, my dear friends. [Ed. note: I'm not your friend, buddy.]
So I’m wondering…..Should I tell you how I scored Penn/Edgar, and why, right now, up front? But that seems kinda like the Pope or the King back in the day, just writing down what he wants to say, and having one of his burly churls nail it to the door of the church for everyone to read…It seems a bit…distant, a bit ‘above it all’, don’tcha think? Because God knows I have plenty to say and no shortage of burly churls; no dearth of hulking familiars to do my bidding have I… [Ed. note: Something tells me that Douglas's high school creative writing teacher hated his guts.]
Perhaps just announcing my presence is enough for now. Perhaps simply allowing some of you, my faithful friends and fellow MMA devotees, to say what YOU want to say is more….Democratic; more…..Enlightened. A behaviour more consistent with a Progressive such as myself. After all, isn’t that my job? Isn’t it incumbent upon me, as a Judge, to make myself available for your criticism? If I take the plane ride, and get to the venue, and score the fights, I have a kind of….Contract with the fans; a contract that specifically allows you to criticize me. And I will be glad to defend the terms of that agreement, even if it means I have to take the weight sometimes.
I knew this was coming as I scored the fight. I knew the inescapable inevitability of criticism was waiting back here. I saw the ride; and I bought a ticket. So what I’m thinking is…… why deny you guys? You earned the right to say what you think by buying the PPV. Don’t I owe you a little time to say everything you want to say? Isn’t that a better way to continue to build a bridge to the fans? By giving them their say? Isn’t that what I owe you?
Shakespeare wrote [Ed. note: Oh, Jesus Christ.]
“THE TIME APPROACHES, THAT WILL, WITH DUE DECISION, MAKE US KNOW; WHAT WE SHALL SAY WE HAVE, AND WHAT WE OWE….”
And we all HAVE my scores…..But what do we….OWE??? So allow me to cast up my accounts with you as equitably as possible, won’t you?
Interestingly, I’ve been slightly taken aback by the response my score for the Penn/Edgar fight has engendered…but not in the way (some of) you guys have responded….I kind of expected that. What’s been surprising is how many people, at the event, in the hotel, at the airport, fighters, production staff, etc., have told me how glad they were that I scored the FIGHT, and not the FIGHTERS. Are you guys with me on that, even just a little? Can you understand what I mean by that?
May I also mention that I forgive you? [Ed. note: *steam shoots out of ears*]
For your anger, your insults, and your crassness? NOT all of you….You know who you are. Yes; YOU: Over there, with the purple Nikes on, waiting for the spaceship in the tail of comet to come take you to a world where everyone agrees with you….and YOU over there…the one who thinks his heroes never lose…
So yes, I forgive you. I started this thread knowing that a percentage of you would behave the way you have. I knew you would when I scored the fight as well. I forgave you then. And even as I forgave you, I prepared myself to defend your right to criticize me, and make myself available for that criticism. Isn’t that something I kind of…started out by saying? As fans, I owe you that. Remember me saying that….Pages ago? That you have the right to criticize me? Wasn’t I the person who brought that up? Wasn’t I the person who gave you the opportunity to be heard? By the person you are angry with?
Should I even mention that most of the virulent criticisms aren’t even consistent with each other? Or is that ‘condescending’? Which is to say…..are the things you’ve written in these last 7 pages available for criticism as well? Or does suggesting that constitute a similar heresy to my scoring in Penn/Edgar?
The reason last question is because I have to make bit of a decision…..Like I said pages ago; do I just lay out why I scored Penn/Edgar the way i did, and leave it at that? [Ed. note: Would that really be too much to ask?] Or do I entertain a….dialogue with you (yes, YOU)? Do I go post-by-post and address your issues, both the rational and the ridiculous, for the sake of a democratic dialogue? Do I pick and choose among the posts for the ones (dissenting or otherwise) I feel are worthy of explanation, refutation, argument? Do I respond to ridicule with ridicule? Viciousness with viciousness? Do I pay each and every one of you with your own currency? Or do I just say what I think as far as that fight, and move on?
I posed that question pages ago. What direction would any of you be inclining towards, were you me? I wonder.
I just took a few moments to go back to the beginning of this thread and re-read everything I said, and the responses it engendered. I recommend it to all of you. My intellectual mentor, Dr. Jacques Vallee’, years ago told me “Seek out your enemies, Douglas, and listen to what they have to say. Than go think for awhile.” [Ed. note: "...but before you do, make sure to write ten pages of pretentious drivel on an Internet message board."]
Reading over what’s been said, in both tone and content, has been enlightening. All of that being said….I’ve mentioned numerous times on other threads that the scoring criteria exist for a reason, just like the 10-point “must” system exists for a reason; and that the scoring criteria are guidelines within which Judges arrive at a decision on a round-by-round basis. It is a Judge’s obligation to interpret the fight and use the criteria as guidelines. But a fight is an observed event that does require interpretation, observation, wisdom.
And, in my considered opinion, Edgar dictated the tone of the fight, successfully implemented and executed a strategy, landed better strikes, and basically outworked Penn. And that is an interpretation by a ringside observer with an understanding and appreciation of MMA, who has Judged numerous (hundreds) of fights. I re-watched the fight in my hotel in Abu Dhabi and saw nothing that would influence me to score it any differently.
I support and encourage your right to criticize my scoring. And I forgive you for your attacks of both a professional, and, regrettably, personal nature.
From commenter Mortality – “50-45 does not mean a fight was lopsided. Every round could have been razor thin but still had the same winner. Some of you don’t seem to understand scoring at all.” I just printed this out and dropped it out my window. The RVCA/HILO BOY Zombies read it and they all just walked into the sea. Thanks! DC/NYC
_____________________
Some discussion questions for your MMA study groups…
– Do MMA judges owe fans explanations for unpopular decisions? Is it in some way unprofessional to respond directly to them in a public forum?
– Has any part of Crosby’s essay convinced you that 50-45 was the "correct" scoring of the fight?
– If there are "heels" in fighting (Lesnar, Sonnen, et al.), can there be heels in judging as well?
– Specifically, what do you think Crosby was high on when he wrote this: Adderall, cocaine, or red wine?
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Comments
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:26
first?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:28
too much to read and dont care about what he has to say. doesnt explain why he did what he did.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:32
moral of the story : dont leave it in the hands of the judges. if you came in to fight, its either you KTFO the guy or submit him or win big. im still surprised a challenger with most wins by decision, won the belt by a decision !
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:35
Does anyone know where I can bet on strikeforce fights? I've got a lot of money to get back after that penn fight. Like a dumbass I put all my eggs in one basket and had penn in almost every parlay. I just didn't see him losing to Edgar...
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:36
Rick James - "Cocaine is a helluva' drug"
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:36
That dude is a tool. I think it's unprofessional to hop on a forum and spout this crap. Could anyone imagine Herb Dean or Big John doing something like this? Herb has explained himself before, but usually to a reporter and he always had a very convincing point.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:36
Corny analogies, Shakespeare references, and clear signs of hitting the synonym button every other word: The trifecta of things an idiot does to try to seem intelligent
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:38
Editor's notes were effin' HILARIOUS. i heart Ben. *** I do not think responding in itself was unprofessional. Writing a twelve page meandering diatribe namechecking Shakespeare and your "intellectual mentor" probably is unprofessional. Crosby would have been far better off to post one paragraph: "And, in my considered opinion, Edgar dictated the tone of the fight, successfully implemented and executed a strategy, landed better strikes, and basically outworked Penn. And that is an interpretation by a ringside observer with an understanding and appreciation of MMA, who has Judged numerous (hundreds) of fights. I re-watched the fight in my hotel in Abu Dhabi and saw nothing that would influence me to score it any differently." and leave it at that. User Mortality seemed to defend the decision better than the judge himself. Obviously, we have judging "heels"--i audibly groan when i hear Cecil Peoples being announced. Now, if we could just have the judging equivalent of Herb Dean...
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:46
So what did he think of the fight?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:47
To answer that last question, Crosby was high on the same thing that helped him score that fight: self-importance. Oh, and fistfuls of nutmeg.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:50
Specifically, it would appear Mr. Crosby was on an opium high, probably got his filthy hands on some good stuff from his trip to Abu Dhabi....... BUT! I do not believe that a judge would be posting this 1st off, 2nd who knows/cares where a judge of MMA fights resides(as if they were protesters) and 3rd as if fans would set up vigil just after the judge arrived home(BS) This post looks like it was created by someone with delusions of grandeur and about 1 yr's worth of an online University English program.......What's most troubling is that it took him 75% of the post to inform us that he judged the fight because he thought Edgar effectively executed a strategy(u can judge a gameplan? I thought only a fighter and his corner knew what the gameplan was?) and that he basically dictated the fight.....what a revelation...Edgar squeaked out a win, whether it was 50-45, by the end of the fight the popular opinion with my crowd was that Edgar may have done enough to win.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:52
This guy is the most self righteous dick I've had the misfortune to read. Thanks, Ben.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:54
What an honor it was to bask in the glow of Douglas Crosby -- clearly the smartest, most eloquent person in the world NAY -- the universe and all parallel dimensions! To quote Shakespeare, if I may: Douglas Crosby, go forth, and fucketh thyself.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:56
If you look at his account, it was created in 2006 and has over 600 posts. So, it seems pretty legit. What are the chances that we're getting epicly trolled right now?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:05
@Aokiplata Very High my friend, very high:)
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:05
"...Every round could have been razor thin but still had the same winner..." Then call it a 10/10 round you f-tard!?! - what's up with UFC judges refusing to utilize the 10/10 score??? I'm not saying that Edgar didn't win... don't care much either way, but giving a fighter all five rounds in championship match scares the s*** out of me on behalf of MMA in general. What happens when he's the deciding factor in a split decision.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:12
I tapped out after two paragraphs, but did scan the rest for the bold "Ed. Notes". Well done, Bens. But wow. I haven't seen that much dancing around it since... well... the Silva fight.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:13
Off topic: When in the hell did Rogan switch from GEE-yuh-TEEN to GILL-uh-TEEN? He has regressed!!!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:13
@ El Topo It's a great way to fill bars. www penny-arcade com/comic/2010/3/12/
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:17
@GEE Dude, I've been wanting to tell you for a while, that it's GI and not GEE. Say GEE all by itself. Golly Gee Willikers! So, it's not pronounced GEE-yuh-TEEN either. if anything, it's GI-yuh-TEEN, but even then, I'd say it's GI-uh-TEEN. The phonics of jimbonics.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:22
I think the UFC-judge recruiting process involves a pick-up truck, a trip to the Home Depot parking lot, and free cheeseburgers.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:24
I just finished re-watching that fight (literally just now) and though this judge hasn't done himself any favors by posting his crazy rant, I can actually see how it could have been scored that way. Don't forget that another judge gave Edgar 4 of the rounds, as well, so it's not like this 5 round judgment was completely out of the blue. In a fight that close, with every round as close as it was, what I saw re-watching the fight was Edgar setting the pace the entire fight. He dictated everything that happened. He was busier (and decidedly so.) Sure, Penn had some nice counters here and there, but so did Edgar. I think the exchanges were largely equal. So Edgar wins rounds with his pace and by being busy (and his two takedowns helped. The fact that he attempted others was probably a benefit, too.) I could see a judge seeing every round his way based on that stuff, so I don't have a problem with the score, myself. Obviously this judge still has some other things going on, though. :p
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:25
he seems to be sucking his own cock there. why not just leave his opinion and let the message board do the rest. i think that the challenger has to TAKE the belt- shogun and machida- and if frankie was judged to have won then fair play to him. El Famous Burrito +1 dude, +1
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:31
Now that's something you don't expect to read. Time to start checking the judges pee I think
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:33
andoy162 : No, the moral of the story is if the internet pisses you off, don't respond (Referring to Crosby). Much less respond with gigantic-ass wall of self-pleasuring text.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:54
That was pretty ridiculous. He's clearly trying to do the A. Silva version of showboating in a fight. He thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else so he showboats with the long-windedness and high brow references of a college professor, thinking the dumb blood-thirsty white trash mma fans will be instantly impressed into thinking he must be smarter than they are. Definitely high on red wine. That's what high brows drink, right? Or maybe he farts into a glass and then smells it like the the smug people in that one episode of South Park? Anyway I thought Edgar squeaked a win, but I didn't see it 50-45.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 08:57
I hope the forums get bombed with "tl;dr"
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:00
wow, this guy is more full of himself than anderson silva
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:06
"Yes; YOU: Over there, with the purple Nikes on, waiting for the spaceship in the tail of comet to come take you to a world where everyone agrees with you…" So he shits on people for acting like everyone should agree with their opinion, but writes a 19837409182374-word manifesto to show how smart he is and how anyone who doesn't agree with him doesn't get it. That's some epic douchebaggery right there. That being said, something tells me this is a troll anyway. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a couple days from now I read on Sherdog that Douglas Crosby states that he didn't write it and is in fact not a member of any internet forum of any kind.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:19
His score of 50-45 was terrible. His life wasting explanation of why was even worse. Only someone with their head up their ass can even stomach the (courage?) to quote shakespeare in the defense of why they did what they did. I love how he actually said he was a progressive too....wtf does that have to do with anything??? Why didnt he just say he scored the fight the way he wanted to because he knows best. Thats what his BS sounds like to me anyway.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:20
i do not care about the judge, but i care very much about the quality of ppv, which includes judging, and the ufc is responsible for that, nobody else. this judge was high on jetlag and so was bj penn(eventhough he was there for more than a week) for not allowing edgar to take him down and keep him down so he could work the bjj in round 4 or 5. letting it go to the judges in a fight like that was dangerous and he knew that! i think the jetlag got to everybody by the end of the fights too. the fighters, announcers, judges, staff, press and DANA WHITE. also, they said the gate tally was 3.5 million, but there is no way that could have made this even break even with everything that was spent. from jets, first class travel and accomadations for hundreds of staff and fighter teams to the construction of an arena built in 3 weeks by a crew of more than 120 and all the advertising that went into this event, there is no way that 3.5 million covered it all. when people stop buying these ppv's that have aired 6-12 hours ahead of regular ppv's. they might stop sending fighters and hundreds of people across the globe.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:21
I still think Penn won. Where on earth does the UFC find these guys?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:23
WOW this is the pinnacle example of the rule don't drink and blog !! How embarassed was this guy, next morning !! LOL
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:24
This guy is a fucking retard. That was one of the most annoying things I've ever read. His judging was wrong, and his article sucks dick and he digs himself a deeper hole. This tool just wants to think he is like the best, most qualified judge which clearly he is not. Don't athletic commissions appoint judges though and not the UFC?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:28
J-Dog ... He has upgraded from the wineglass to the face mask with a hose up his butt. I don't agree with 50-45, but on a side note Frankie outworked BJ and at the end of the fight BJ looked MUCH less mobile and effective. This is very impressionable and if a judge hasnt finalized all his scores for each round I can see this coloring earlier round perception. Even though I think BJ landed heavier shots and sometimes appeared to counter more effectively, he wasn't the aggressor. The judging rules clearly state "aggression and octagon control" WTG Frankie Edgar.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:28
Oh 50-45 is just awful! What was this guy watching!? I mean, he must have been watching a COMPLETELY different fight for that one round that the other judge who scored it 49-46 was watching! So, let me get this straight. Would BJ have lost less if it was 49-46 instead of 50-45? Even lesser if it was 48-47? Would he have been able to keep a little sliver of his belt for keeping it close? The bottom line is even if this guy scored it 48-47 for BJ, HE STILL WOULD HAVE LOST. I could see this coming as soon as I heard BJ's pre-fight quote, "What kind of champion doesn't get up for Frankie Edgar?"
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:34
Edgar won by simply looking busier. Call that strategy or whatever you want, but thats the bottom line. BJ peppered Edgar every time he shot in within the first 3 rounds! BJ looked a little gassed in the 5th but a fight does not get determined by a fighter simply looking busier. Edgar clearly got the 5th but all the others were virtually Edgar dancing while BJ waited patiently with deliberate and precise punches! BJ won the fight 3-2 in this idiots eyes!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:35
This guy's a fruitcake. I think a real judge should order him to stay away from the locker rooms.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:41
This is obviously the work of Curtis Sample!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:45
This was such a waste of time. I was constantly expecting him to get to his reasoning in the next paragraph...and then the next......and the next. Bottom line is he is a self rightous prick. I was mad at myself for reading the whole thing but El Famous Burrito made it all better because he made me Lol.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:51
If you look at that photo of BJ he looks like he already lost.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:59
I read the whole thing. I'm no huge Penn fan to say the least. But his argument that edgar set the pace for the fight is silly. He used quickness an foot movement to EVADE, but not to attack. That dictates the pace of a fight in the same way a fellow running away in terror dictates the fight. Yes, Edgar executed his strategy, but was the strategy effective, or if effective did it create an advantage over Penn and his executed strategy? The greater level of damage that Edgar received indicates no. This fellow claims that Edgar outworked Penn. Well he certainly worked more, but what did that work accomplish really? Penns pacing is by nature more methodical, and left him able to still be effective with his strikes. Edgars pace only managed to win him the final round. The final round is Edgars because Penn tired. That is definitely not good as the champ, but that still only loses him the last round. I say, at best ( for edgar I mean ) it was 48-47 Penn. Even if you see the 4th as Edgars he still loses, but the initial rounds are Penn. Not a fan, but Penn won the fight. I just wish it looked like even wanted it that fight.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 09:59
I'm kinda glad I couldn't watch the fights. Based on what you guys are saying, A) Spider's a boring douche of a fighter and B) Baby J left his heart in Hilo.. If I missed any important details, so be it. Anyhow, thanks fellas. And you guys all write way better than this drama queen/judge. WAY better
Mon, 04/12/10 - 10:38
I agree that much of that writing was self-pleasuring. I disagree that it is anything worth complaining about. It's more refreshing to see someone clumsily wielding a large vocabulary than posting a run-on sentence of four letter words and abbreviations.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 10:50
I scored the fight 50-45 for Penn. Sean Penn.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 10:51
Personally, I think he's all jacked up on Mountain Dew.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 10:56
Rex13 has made the best point so far - it isn't that he can't/shouldn't defend his decision, it is just he doesn't need to blow his load on a diatribe this long. For the record, I think his decision is perfectly legitimate. Round 1, a lot of people remember as clearly being for Penn, because BJ took control in second half of it. But don't forget that Edgar battered both of BJ's eyes with nice clean shots at the beginning of RD 1. Rounds 2-4 were very close, and I think it was obvious that RD 5 was Edgar's. While everyone is getting all over Edgar saying he simply "looked" more active, and that swayed the decision, I think they are also missing a key point that a lot of BJ's punches that "looked" like they landed were nothing but glancing blows because of Edgar's superior movement. And many of Edgar's shots that landed clean "looked" as if they didn't do much because of BJ's ability to absorb punishment without dramatic movement from his head. But punch for punch, Edgar was landing more of his combinations for longer. I actually had the fight 49-46 for Edgar, giving BJ the first round, but I remember thinking that several of the rounds, including the first, were incredibly close. I think that the judge's best point in his long-winded crapfest is that simply because you score a fight 50-45 doesn't mean you thought it was a blowout. Each round could be incredibly close, but they tally your score card after the individual round so you can't make an overall score change at the end. Also, a 48-47 score doesn't always mean it was a razor-thin fight, since two of the rounds might have been incredibly close, and then three others could be a blowout.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:00
Frankie dictated the pace of the fight. He took Penn down twice, who was the last guy to do that not name GSP? He busted up his face a bit. The score is irrelevant. Penn let the fight get away from him and paid for it
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:05
I also don't buy the excuses that Penn simply didn't "show up" for the fight. I think he showed up the same as he has for the last several fights where he crushed his opponents. The problem for Penn is that Edgar is faster and a better boxer than Sanchez, Stevenson, or Florian. Penn showed up just fine, he just got frustrated when things weren't as easy for him. It reminded me a lot of Penn's first fight against Pulver back when he was the next big thing. Back then, Puler was much faster than he is now, and a solid boxer, and he frustrated Penn with movement and speed, just like Edgar. I think BJ's biggest problem has always been his head. He is used to destroying opponents, and when things start to get difficult, he lets his frustration get the better of him. It showed against Pulver, St. Pierre (both times), and Edgar. That, and his conditioning is still substandard compared to elite-conditioned guys like Edgar and St. Pierre. He may have improved somewhat in that regard, but BJ still relies too much on natural talent, which he has tons of. He may be an elite-level fighter, with elite-level striking and elite-level jiu-jitsu, but he is still far from the type of conditioning that some guys have.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:17
My living room was watching BJ Penn get slipped every time he tried to throw a jab down the middle and Edgar landing cleanly and controlling the fight rounds 1-5. This is classic internet meme mentality, a few BJ Penn fans start raging and the rest of the internet jumps on board because they like a controversy. BJ's corner is telling him at the halfway point of the fight "stop striking, you have to take him down!"...is this because THEY thought he was winning? At the end of the fight, BJ hung his head, blood coming out from both of his eyes, looking completely defeated....did HE think he won the fight? Shit, BJ Penn is the biggest "I got screwed" whiner in the world, and him/his camp aren't even talking trash about the decision.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:22
after reading that rant, it is painfully obvious that that "shit-for-brains" judge knows absolutely nothing about martial arts! for one, penn was never hurt! how can the score be that lop-sided (50/45) when the champion was never hurt? i always thought you had to convincingly "beat" the champion to take the belt??? that did not happen! the judge is a douche bag, bottom line! i blame dana white ultimately!!! he should select competent judges with martial arts backgrounds(trainers, ex-fighters, etc.). that moron judge has obviously never stepped foot in an octogon or on a mat! all these hilo head idiots also should stop blaming the judge and look at their own fighter bj "baby j" penn! once again it was his cardio that failed him. as in every other 5 round fight, bj gasses! when will he stop surrounding himself with "yes" men and get some real cardio guys in his camp to train. frankie did what any other smart light weight should do, dance until round 4 and 5 and then capitalize when bj gets tired! duh, NO BRAINER!!! congrats f. edgar!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:29
Ok, my crew and I ...we all watched the fights.. and by round four we were all in agreement that Edgar would have to stop Penn. We based our opinion on the fact that the shogun fight was scored for the cleaner more precise striking. Not being busier. If that's the case Shogun would be champion right now. I honestly would have bet the house on Penn after seeing the fight, and we were all shocked when they read the scores. I could care less about this doucher, he is obviously out of his fucking mind. But I feel for the fans who because of inconsistent scoring cannot get a good grasp on how it works. I see it this way if you are going to score one fight a certain way, score em all the same way!! Its not hard by any means.. Penn got fucked pure and simple, although I am curious why did he look so lethargic, and why the knee brace?? Is there something we didn't know about him prefight? Not hatin on Edgar he is a bad ass fighter but the judges are fucking idiots. I personally dont believe a good game plan is enough to take a title it actually has to work. What I mean by that is you need to take the title, stop Bj or clearly dominate. I saw nothing of the sort on Saturday. Not since GSP has BJ been dominated.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:34
@Howie214 FYI Dana has no say in the Judges selection process. in case you didn't know, the sport of mma is run by athletic commissions. And these commissions select the judges. This is not the wwe. They are all appointed directly from the commission.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:36
I can see why someone would have scored it 50-45. Personally I'm not sure I could have come to that, but the potential was there. If you look at it as a 25 minute fight, there were many 5 minute periods where I might say Penn was winning, but they didn't ever really fit into one round. To give every round to Edgar is really to say that he was a nose ahead of Penn the entire time (Machide/Rua anyone?), but a few more strikes or a takedown from Penn could have easily secured the fight. I think octagon control and aggression should be valued highly, because it really does color all the fighter's other actions in the fight. Edgar won the fight for sure, I'm surprised people think otherwise. I would not want to have to justify the scores to anyone, because it seems like a pain to explain them. But nothing seems unreasonable here. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is: should a UFC judge also be coherent when posting on the internet? That's not a part of the job requirements. He should probably stick to his job and not worry about justifying his actions - as long as they are reasonable. If all 3 judges scored 50-45, then I'd have a problem.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:41
@jimbonics I've thought about it and had a change of heart (and change of name), it's probably GUI-uh-TEEN, but not GI-uh-TEEN... I think however Cheick Kongo and GSP say it is the correct way.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:44
Oh and anyone that points to the meaningless take downs that Edgar ...scored...get outta here. First of all when you go 2 for 12 on take down attempts... its horrible. Second of all when you finally get him there and cannot control him enough to keep it on the ground...the take down scores no points its useless its like a leg kick if the leg kick doesnt set up a good shot to the face or other strike it just sounds bad ask shogun they dont win fights, and im being generous because the first one looked more like BJ tripped than anything (technically one take down). I mean damn just because someone gets a take down does not win the round..its what you do or use the take down to set up with that counts. Edgar clearly did none of this. Advantage BJ!!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:46
@ munche and mmmiles9000 Thank you for making some sense! Finally some objectivity, and it seems you were watching what I was watching, and both understand the nature of the scoring system. @ Howie214 You are a jackass. You know nothing of the rules or scoring. Go read Rich Franklin's "MMA for Dummies" or Frank Shamrock's "MMA for Dummies, vol. 2", or simply read the FAQ's on the UFC website. Any of those would likely vastly improve your understanding of the sport. There is only up to go!
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:52
mmmiles9000 Just out of curiosity, what would you say Edgar did to control the fight? The one I saw was Bj moving forward most of the time, and successfully defending about 80 percent or more of Edgars take down attempts. The way I see It Bj controlled where the fight took place so Check that in the win column for him. Octagon control, check. Aggression, check. Precise, cleaner shots, check. What else does he need to do ? I mean come on Edgar clearly wanted this fight on the ground, or else he would have not attempted so many take downs. How is that control when you are forced to stand and eat the Jab and left hook of the champ for five rounds?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 11:59
Did Cecil Peoples change his name and not tell anyone?
Mon, 04/12/10 - 12:00
@ MMAINMYBLOOD I'm sure mmmiles9000 has his own opinion about it, but I thought most of Edgar's takedown attempts weren't followed through with because he wasn't necessarily going for the takedown, but wanted to keep BJ guessing. That goes to controlling the fight. You didn't see a lot of Edgar going for the takedown, forcing it, and pressing BJ up against the fence while Penn defended it. Instead, he went for the motion of it, and then backed away into striking, simply to show BJ that the threat was there. And I disagree that Penn had the more precise, cleaner shots. He had some, but never grouped them together enough to clearly take many of the rounds.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 12:10
CagePotato, I loathe you for your spreading of this man's word. This void of logic, this vast collection of drivel. May the ravens peck out your eyes..
Mon, 04/12/10 - 12:19
@RwilsonR i see so what you are saying its a feint? I can see that, but I would also like to see him follow up with something or commit to the take down. In My eyes its as useful as Machidas little feint he pulls off its really useless and doesn't score but it keeps people off balance and they don't know if he is going to kick or punch so he is able to score with it. In Frankies case he attempted take downs Im sure he didn't commit to all of them but Bj Shucked him off on many occasions and the ones he may not have committed to he didn't follow up with anything when you drop to your knees and don't get the take down that's not to keep them guessing that's oh shit I aint getting this one. I mean yeah Bj may have been guessing but he wasn't fooled. The ONLY category I give Edgar is the work rate. Other than that nothing else. He basically Clay Guida-ed BJ on Saturday.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 12:49
This is the scene that played out in my mind. Steve Mazzagatti is in the center of the cage, Cecil Peoples to his right and Crosby to his left. Bruce Buffer is about to read the official decision: Buffer: Ladies and Gentlemen we have just seen two Horrible judges duel it out in a battle of mediocrity that can only happen inside the octagon. All three judges score this contest 50-45 for the winner...AND NEW...CECIL PEOPLES JUDGING CHAMPION OF THE WORLD...Douglas "The Dingbat" Crosby! Rogan: All right, I'm here with the winner Douglas "The Dingbat" Crosby, what are your thoughts on the outcome! Crosby: Well Joe, I knew that I had to come big or go home. The honour that hath been placed upon me is tantamount to a siren's song, because God knows I have plenty to say and no shortage of burly churls; no dearth of hulking familiars to do my bidding have I. I doth not thinketh I could outdoeth the great Cecil Peoples but my gratitude to a combination of Acid, Weed, and Machida's Urine ensured that I could has victory! Rogan: Thanks Crosby, now lets here from the dethroned champ. Cecil, what are your thoughts. Peoples: Well if I was judging our contest I think I would've given it to Machida. Rogan: Well there you have it ladies and gentlemen! Douglas Crosby is your NEW CHAMPION! (The mic cuts out and Joe turns to Crosby) I want whatever you've been taking.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 02:22
@ MMAINMYBLOOD I agree that BJ shucked off some of his TD efforts but what Edgar did differently was give up on the TDs as soon as it was apparent BJ had defended them. So you only give Frankie the work rate, what about damage? One of the penn nut huggers biggest complaints during Penn/GSP 1 was that BJ looked fine and GSP was all marked up. BJ was bleeding around both eyes and frankie looked fine. If you look at the scoring system in place, Frankie had more effective aggression, he had takedowns (which is huge against Penn), he attacked in combinations to Penn's 1 or 2. I gave Penn the 1st round by a hair and then the middle 3 were uber close with a feeling that Edgar had pulled them out and the 5th was clearly Edgar's 50-45 is not outside the realm of possiblity and a 50-45 fight can be closer than 48-47 fight if all the rounds are close.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 02:29
I fucking lost all faith in judges now, who are these retards? I had no doubt in my mind that Penn won that fight and I still believe he did, sure he probably had his worst showing in quite some time but no way did Frank do enough to win.. Plus this shit for brains judge really had me riled up before he posted this turd from hell, I guess I seem as unprofessional as him by writing this but fuck me that asshole deserves to be kicked in the nads and from his job and sentenced to a lifetime of scrubbing fuckin McDonalds bathrooms
Mon, 04/12/10 - 03:29
RwilsonR said: For the record, I think his decision is perfectly legitimate. Round 1, a lot of people remember as clearly being for Penn, because BJ took control in second half of it. But don't forget that Edgar battered both of BJ's eyes with nice clean shots at the beginning of RD 1. Rounds 2-4 were very close, and I think it was obvious that RD 5 was Edgar's. While everyone is getting all over Edgar saying he simply "looked" more active, and that swayed the decision, I think they are also missing a key point that a lot of BJ's punches that "looked" like they landed were nothing but glancing blows because of Edgar's superior movement. And many of Edgar's shots that landed clean "looked" as if they didn't do much because of BJ's ability to absorb punishment without dramatic movement from his head. But punch for punch, Edgar was landing more of his combinations for longer. I actually had the fight 49-46 for Edgar, giving BJ the first round, but I remember thinking that several of the rounds, including the first, were incredibly close. I think that the judge's best point in his long-winded crapfest is that simply because you score a fight 50-45 doesn't mean you thought it was a blowout. Each round could be incredibly close, but they tally your score card after the individual round so you can't make an overall score change at the end. Also, a 48-47 score doesn't always mean it was a razor-thin fight, since two of the rounds might have been incredibly close, and then three others could be a blowout. ---------- I'm with you, RwilsonR. I think this judge's decision is legit and I also think his long-winded post was unnecessary. This is the same, age-old argument that people never seem to fully grasp no matter how many times it comes up: Judging is subjective. I can totally see how a judge saw it 50-45. I can see how you saw it 49-46. I could also see how someone could see it 46-49 in favor of Penn, I suppose, if they saw something I didn't see. That doesn't mean that I don't know dick about MMA. It doesn't mean that this judge is a crackpot. It's a close fight. People see and value things differently in close fights. That's why fighters should never let it go to the cards. The cards happened to go for Edgar, here. They might have gone for Penn, instead. Neither fighter should have been real content with that, in my opinion.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 03:37
Howie214 said: after reading that rant, it is painfully obvious that that "shit-for-brains" judge knows absolutely nothing about martial arts! for one, penn was never hurt! how can the score be that lop-sided (50/45) when the champion was never hurt? i always thought you had to convincingly "beat" the champion to take the belt??? that did not happen! the judge is a douche bag, bottom line! i blame dana white ultimately!!! he should select competent judges with martial arts backgrounds(trainers, ex-fighters, etc.). that moron judge has obviously never stepped foot in an octogon or on a mat! ---------- See, this type of post makes me lose my mind. Howie214 says that the judge is a "shit for brains" who knows nothing about martial arts. But Howie says things in his post that make it obvious that Howie has NO IDEA, himself, about MMA scoring or judging: 1) A lopsided score doesn't mean domination. It just means that one fighter consistently won rounds in the judge's eyes. It has nothing to do with either fighter being hurt, either (though that can sway the score of a single round, of course.) Assuming the winner of any round gets 10 points and the loser of the round gets 9 for this example, if Edgar won the first round in a close fashion in this judge's eyes, the cumulative score would be 10-9. If he won the second round, as well, the score would be 20-18. If he also won the third round, it's now up to 30-27. And so on. Now if Edgar had won a competitive round in a very clear fashion, the cumulative score would still be 10-9 after one. And also so on and so on. So the score being lopsided doesn't necessarily have ANYTHING to do with cumulative damage over the fight, or one fighter having a more dominant round followed by a more passive round. It just means that one fighter won more rounds than the other. In this case, this judge felt that Edgar won every round, albeit by a slim margin. I'm not a fighter in real life. I've never been in an octogon. But at least I understand the rules of scoring. Being a fighter isn't necessarily a pre-requisite for that, it turns out. 2) Dana White has absolutely nothing to do with the choosing of judges. Athletic Commissions do that (as well as selecting the referees.) Being a fighter isn't necessarily a pre-requisite for understanding that, either, it turns out.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 03:57
Wow, that dude sure is a prick isn't he. The ed.notes are the only thing that made that worth reading. They should have let him loose on silva instead. I can only picture the best application for his delusional judging skills is to award silva fights unanimously for his opponents.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 04:14
@tnbp You make good point all around. I absolutely agree with you that someone could legitimately see that fight 50-45 for Edgar, 49-46 for Edgar, or 49-46 for Penn. Like I said, all the rounds were very close, with the fifth being the most obvious to me. I wouldn't even argue with someone who saw it as a razor-close victory for Penn. I would disagree, but it was close enough that it should be a matter of opinion that both sides could intelligently support, and would never question that person's knowledge of the sport. What I don't get is all of the Penn fans that act as though this is the biggest robbery in judging history. It was close - Penn fans need to at least admit that, or I won't take them seriously. And the only person whose knowledge I did question was Howie214, because his post was fucking stupid.
Mon, 04/12/10 - 07:19
he was high on his own sense of self worth, what a bunch of drivel (Idk if I ever used that word before, but it couldn't be more appropriate).
Tue, 04/13/10 - 05:39
That gave me a headache.
Sat, 04/30/11 - 08:38
[...] but he should definitely explain himself. Great fight. You mean the same way he did last time? Judge Who Scored It 50-45 for Frankie Edgar Confirms That He Is Indeed Insane | Cagepotato He's not fit to be a judge. End of [...]
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